The Addicted Mind Podcast

In this episode, Duane Osterlind talks with Nawal Roy, the visionary behind Holmusk, the world’s largest clinical data platform for mental health. After a successful career in finance, Nawal pivoted to healthcare, driven by the realization that mental health is one of the most complex, yet least quantified, areas of medicine.
They dive deep into how Holmusk has spent 11 years building a "scientific-grade" database of over 42 million patients, shifting mental health care away from "hunches and poetry" toward precision and evidence-based science.
Key Discussion Points
The Data Gap in Mental Health: Historically, mental health treatment has relied on clinician intuition rather than hard data. Nawal explains how Holmusk "normalizes" messy, unstructured electronic health records to create a searchable, scientific database.
The 10-Year Wait: Data reveals a heartbreaking reality: the average journey from the onset of symptoms to receiving meaningful care is 8 to 10 years.
Ending the Trial-and-Error Cycle: A typical acute patient might cycle through 10 to 12 different medications over 18 months before finding what works. Nawal discusses how large-scale data can help clinicians find the right treatment faster.
The Power of Comorbidity: Mental health doesn't exist in a vacuum. Treating depression can significantly improve outcomes for physical conditions like diabetes, yet these are often treated as separate issues.
Measurement-Based Care: Nawal argues that "engagement is not outcome." He highlights the desperate need to move toward a system that measures functional improvement (like GAF or CGI scores) rather than just "showing up for therapy."
AI and the Future of Psychiatry: How Holmusk is using Natural Language Processing (NLP) to "read" thousands of unstructured doctor's notes and train AI models to provide clinically accurate—not just "nice sounding"—guidance.

"Mental health is currently closer to poetry than science... we need to bring the level of rigor found in pediatric oncology to the mental health community." — Nawal Roy
"You can't improve what you don't measure. If we have data, we can actually make real, significant change to people's lives." — Duane Osterlind
Big Takeaways
Demand Data: Patients and stakeholders should demand that mental health be treated with the same clinical rigor as physical health.
Outcome over Engagement: Simply attending sessions isn't enough; we must measure whether the patient is actually getting better.
The Role of AI: AI has the potential to democratize access to care, but it must be trained on massive, clinically valid datasets to avoid "hallucinations" and provide safe, effective support.
Resources Mentioned
Holmusk: holmusk.com
NeuroBlue: Holmusk’s flagship data analytics platform.
ACE Study: Referenced by Duane regarding Adverse Childhood Experiences and their long-term health impacts.

LinkedIn: Nawal Roy

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Supporting Resources:
If you live in California and are looking for counseling or therapy please check out Novus Mindful Life Counseling and Recovery Center
NovusMindfulLife.com
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Download: Shame Sabotaging Your Recovery Worksheet
Have you ever noticed that after a slip in recovery, your thoughts immediately jump to "I'm worthless" or "I'm never going to get better"? These aren't just random negative thoughts – they're part of a powerful emotion that might be secretly sabotaging your recovery journey. In this eye-opening episode of The Addicted Mind Plus, hosts Duane and Eric Osterlind dive deep into the crucial difference between guilt and shame in addiction recovery. Through evidence-based research and practical experience, they reveal why many people mistakenly identify their shame as guilt, and how this misunderstanding can keep them trapped in the addiction cycle. The hosts share three powerful, scientifically-backed tools that listeners can start using immediately to build shame resilience and strengthen their recovery journey. Whether you're in recovery yourself or supporting someone who is, this episode offers essential insights into breaking free from the destructive grip of shame while building a healthier relationship with yourself and others.
KEY TOPICS
The critical difference between guilt ("I made a mistake") and shame ("I am a mistake")
How toxic shame fuels the addiction cycle
Research findings on shame's direct link to substance use problems
The importance of shame resilience in recovery
Three easy tools for breaking the shame spiral
The role of connection and community in overcoming shame
Practical language shifts for transforming shame into growth
TIMESTAMPS
[00:01:20] Introduction to shame's impact on recovery
[00:02:31] Research findings on shame vs. guilt in addiction
[00:04:00] How toxic shame creates a negative cycle
[00:08:14] First tool: The Language Shift technique
[00:09:40] Second tool: The Shame Interrupt method
[00:11:00] Third tool: The Connection Practice
[00:13:40] Community resources and next steps

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This episode features a deep dive into the complex neurobiology of betrayal with Dr. Stan Tatkin, the developer of PACT (A Psychobiological Approach to Couple Therapy). Hosted by Duane Osterlind, the conversation explores why betrayal feels like an existential threat, the role of shame in stalling recovery, and the "hard pills" that must be swallowed for true relationship restoration.
The Anatomy of Betrayal
Betrayal is often misunderstood as simply a sexual or financial act. Dr. Tatkin defines it more deeply as the violation of the free flow of vital information.
Identity Shattering: When vital information is withheld, the discovery partner's entire history, identity, and sense of reality are retroactively altered.
The "Secret Basement": Engaging in deceptive behaviors creates a psychological "basement" that triggers a "sleeping with the enemy" dynamic once revealed.
The Neurobiology of Discovery
The brain of a betrayed partner enters a state of Post-Traumatic Stress (PTSD).
Automatic Re-sorting: For approximately one year after discovery, the brain will automatically resort every past memory to fit the new data—this happens without the person’s permission.
Hypervigilance: Because the "safe" environment (the partner) has become a "threat" environment, the survival system remains stuck in the "on" position.
The "Distancing" Betrayer
Dr. Tatkin notes that a large majority of "secret keepers" fall into the avoidant/distancing attachment group.
Adaptation over Choice: Avoidant behaviors often stem from early childhood neglect where the infant learned to "auto-regulate" through fantasy and compartmentalization rather than seeking comfort from others.
Self-Objectification: These individuals may treat partners as "self-objects"—extensions of themselves—rather than separate people with their own rights and feelings.
The Role of Shame vs. Guilt
Shame is often the greatest hurdle to healing.
Parasympathetic Collapse: Shame feels like a physical "bleeding out" or exposure of one's guts.
The Trap of Self-Flagellation: When a betrayer indulges in their own shame, they effectively "role-reverse," forcing the betrayed partner to care for them.
Justice and Fairness: For a relationship to heal, the betrayer must move from shame (which is about self) to contrition and guilt (which is about the harm caused to the other).
Key Takeaways for Healing
Boundaries Save Relationships: Dr. Tatkin argues that the betrayed partner must "throw down" and be willing to leave. For the betrayer to change, they must lose the relationship they thought they had. Without consequences, there is no motivation for character change.
The Burden is on the Secret Keeper: To repair the bond, the betrayer must be willing to be the "hero, the healer, and the villain" simultaneously, falling on their sword repeatedly without complaining about the length of the process.
Co-Regulation is Essential: We heal through the eyes of others. While the betrayer cannot look to the betrayed partner for comfort initially, they must find groups, therapists, or "unafraid others" to help regulate their shame.
Tools for Self-Regulation:
Journaling: Distancing yourself from the "movie" in your head by putting it on paper.
Talking Aloud: Naming emotions (e.g., "Right now I feel humiliated") to engage the prefrontal cortex and interrupt the "silent running" of toxic self-talk.
Resources Mentioned
The PACT Institute: thepactinstitute.com
Books by Stan Tatkin: Wired for Love, We Do, and In Each Other's Care.
Duane Osterlind: Novus Counseling
"Attachment biology tells us on an existential level: I can't quit you, it feels like death. But I can't live with you either. This is the 'dark side' of attachment that keeps us in relationships even when we shouldn't be—unless we stand on principle." > — Dr. Stan Tatkin

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Supporting Resources:
If you live in California and are looking for counseling or therapy please check out Novus Mindful Life Counseling and Recovery Center
NovusMindfulLife.com
We want to hear from you. Leave us a message or ask us a question: https://www.speakpipe.com/addictedmind
Disclaimer
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Download: From Self-Blame to Self-Compassion Recovery Worksheet.
Are you your own worst enemy in recovery? This episode tackles the hidden barrier that keeps many people stuck in addiction - a harsh inner critic. Hosts Duane and Eric Osterlind explore how self-blame can sabotage recovery efforts and share research-backed strategies for developing self-compassion. Drawing from Dr. Kristen Neff's groundbreaking research, they explain why being kind to yourself isn't just "feel-good talk" but a powerful tool for lasting change. The hosts break down practical steps to transform your inner dialogue and explain why self-compassion actually leads to better accountability than harsh self-criticism. Whether you're in recovery or supporting someone who is, this episode offers actionable tools to break free from shame and build lasting resilience.

Key Topics
The difference between self-compassion and self-excuse
Research evidence supporting self-compassion in recovery
How shame fuels addiction cycles
Practical steps to develop self-compassion
The role of community support in building self-compassion
Connection between self-compassion and accountability
Tools for identifying and transforming your inner critic

Key Timestamps
[00:01:23] Why we're kinder to others than ourselves
[00:03:35] Understanding the trap of self-blame
[00:05:02] Introduction to Dr. Kristen Neff's research
[00:07:34] Self-compassion vs. making excuses
[00:08:23] Practical steps for developing self-compassion
[00:11:36] The importance of common humanity
[00:14:31] Different timelines for change

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In this episode of The Addicted Mind, Duane Osterlind talks with Noel Rihm and Bill Brady, founders of Kaleidoscope. Both Noel and Bill spent decades as high-functioning professionals—Noel in healthcare leadership and Bill as a high-powered Wall Street lawyer—while battling severe, life-threatening alcoholism.
After years of being labeled "treatment resistant" by traditional rehabs, they discovered that the problem wasn't their lack of willpower; it was that the root cause—unprocessed trauma—had never been addressed. They discuss how EMDR, psychedelic-assisted therapy, and a "bespoke" approach to healing allowed them to move from "white-knuckling" sobriety to living as "unburdened souls."
Guests:
Noel Rihm
A veteran of the healthcare industry for over 25 years, Noel struggled with alcoholism for three decades. Despite cumulative years in residential treatment and AA, she found true liberation through EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing), which resolved the trauma symptoms that had driven her addiction for 30 years in just six sessions.
Bill Brady
Bill spent 25 years in Wall Street finance and private equity. To the outside world, he was "killing it," but internally, he was consuming up to two liters of vodka a day. After traditional treatments failed and hope was gone, Bill found a "miracle" through psychedelic therapy, which allowed him to forgive himself and reconnect with his life.

Key Discussion Points
1. The Myth of the "Treatment Resistant" Addict
The Problem: Traditional rehab often treats the habit without addressing the pain driving it.
The Reality: If treatment isn't working, it is often a failure of the protocol, not the patient.

2. Redefining Trauma
The Definition: Trauma is not what happened to you; it is how your nervous system responds to what happened.
The "Paper Cut" Effect: Small, recurring "little T" traumas—like a dismissive remark in childhood—can create a false narrative of unworthiness that persists for decades.

3. The Kaleidoscope Model: The Arc of Healing
Stabilization: Getting the body and mind regulated.
Preparation: Gentle, trauma-informed work to prepare the soul for a shift.
The Shift: Utilizing tools like EMDR, psychedelic therapy, or somatic processing to "unhook" from the trauma.
Integration: The most critical phase—having a "Sherpa" (permanent coach) to help apply insights to daily life.

4. The "Sherpa" and Family Healing
The Sherpa Model: Unlike traditional rehab where the relationship ends at discharge, Kaleidoscope provides a permanent guide to help navigate the "scavenger hunt" of resources in the local community.
Healing the System: In the final week of treatment, spouses and significant others are invited to undergo their own healing, ensuring the addict doesn't return to a toxic or unhealed home environment.

Memorable Quotes
"From the outside, it looked like I was killing it. From the inside, it looked like I was killing myself." — Bill Brady
"Unprocessed trauma is like a keg of dynamite waiting to go off. I knew how to address my trauma: Two liters of vodka reliably would get me into a blackout." — Noel Rihm
"It’s not about not drinking. It’s about not wanting to." — Bill Brady
Resources Mentioned
Kaleidoscope:
Innovation Lab: Kaleidoscope’s research-driven facility in Cabo, focused on clinical rigor and tracking healing outcomes.
Key Therapies: EMDR, Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy, and Somatic Processing.

Links to Guests Below:
LinkedIn/Noel Rihm
LinkedIn/Bill Brady
Kaleidoscope Ventures
Smashed: Sober (with a Twist)
Contact The Addicted Mind:
Website: theaddictedmind.com

Follow and Review: We’d love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast.
Supporting Resources:
If you live in California and are looking for counseling or therapy please check out Novus Mindful Life Counseling and Recovery Center
NovusMindfulLife.com
We want to hear from you. Leave us a message or ask us a question: https://www.speakpipe.com/addictedmind
Disclaimer

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.