Uncensored CMO

For years, Mark Ritson and Byron Sharp have been two of the most influential and most opinionated voices in marketing. They've challenged each other's ideas, debated strategy, and helped shape how an entire generation of marketers thinks.
Now, for the first time in more than a decade, at Cannes Lions, they sit down together to answer a simple question: what do they actually agree on?

From How Brands Grow and the 95:5 rule to distinctiveness, the 4 Ps, mass marketing, luxury brands, purpose and AI, this conversation explores the fundamental marketing principles they both believe every marketer should understand.
There are still plenty of disagreements (and more than a few jokes at each other's expense), but this is a rare opportunity to hear two of the industry's biggest thinkers build a shared foundation for modern marketing.
This episode is brought to you by System1. Download their creator effectiveness report here: https://system1group.com/the-creator-effectiveness-playbook
Timestamps

00:00:00 - Start
00:00:40 - Teaser
00:02:08 - Mark Ritson on Champagne
00:03:42 - When did Mark and Byron meet
00:05:36 - Why Byron and Mark are coming together after a decade
00:07:25 - When Jon met Byron
00:08:57 - Is AI more brand centric than humans?
00:11:08 - Mark and Byron’s criticism on their Cannes talk
00:12:49 - The problem with academia
00:13:45 - What do marketers still not understand about How Brands Grow
00:18:06 - You are not the customer
00:20:56 - Distinctiveness vs relative differentiation
00:28:45 - Why we need to control all 4 Ps
00:33:10 - The 95:5 rule
00:39:20 - Why Byron doesn’t like the term “Long Term”
00:42:41 - The role of mass marketing
00:46:40 - How to do mass marketing as a challenger brand
00:53:45 - How long does it take to build a proper brand
00:56:10 - What does Byron think of P&G
00:58:47 - The power of distinctive brand assets
01:03:42 - Why brand anniversaries are pointless
01:04:40 - How luxury brands grow
01:09:16 - The role of purpose
01:16:58 - The dark lord of penetration
01:18:17 - What pet name does Byron have for Mark
01:23:17 - Closing remarks

In this episode, Josh Spanier from Google and Lauren Wiener from BCG join us to discuss how AI is transforming marketing, organisations, and the role of the CMO. From navigating the AI hype cycle to building the right culture for change, they share practical advice for leaders trying to turn AI from a buzzword into a genuine competitive advantage.
We also explore the future skills marketers will need, the changing role of agencies, why marketing should lead AI transformation, and where the industry is likely to be just 12 months from now.
This episode has been produced in partnership with BCG. Browse their CMO Report here:
https://www.bcg.com/publications/2026/making-the-agentic-marketing-transformation-a-reality

Timestamps
00:00 - Start
01:52 - Where are we in the AI hype cycle
04:48 - How are Google seeing AI impact businesses
06:50 - The difference between the CMOs who are getting it right and wrong
09:05 - The future of marketing in the age of AI
10:48 - The skills of the future CMO
16:41 - Why marketing needs to drive the change
19:18 - Positive examples of AI
24:01 - How do organisations make the change
27:02 - When AI campaigns don’t go so well
29:11 - How AI data will transform marketing
30:13 - Dealing with higher expectations but less resource
35:25 - The culture to enable successful AI transformation
36:55 - The role of agencies in an AI world
38:50 - AI predictions in 12 months
40:23 - The best advice you’ve ever been given
41:52 - Where will marketing be in 12 months

Adam Morgan, founder of eatbigfish and co-creator of The Cost of Dull, joins us to explore why surprise is one of the most powerful tools available to marketers. Drawing on new research unveiled at Cannes Lions, Adam and Jon explain the psychology behind surprise, the science of reward prediction error, and why memorable brands consistently give people more than they expect.
We discuss the different types of surprise, why products need to live up to the expectations created by advertising, and examine some of the best examples of surprise in modern marketing from Aldi to Jaguar and beyond.
Timestamps

00:00 - Start
01:58 - The surprising outcomes of Cost of Dull
06:04 - The genesis of Cost of Dull
09:01 - Why are we talking about surprise?
10:08 - Why the best marketers look outside of marketing
13:42 - What the data says about surprise
15:50 - Reward prediction error
17:26 - Why your product needs to exceed expectations set by your brand
19:59 - The surprising power of giving people more than they expect
21:48 - The two types of surprise
25:00 - Adam’s favourite examples of surprise
26:09 - Jon’s favourite example of surprise
28:20 - Was Jaguar intentionally surprising?
29:39 - Examples of long term surprise
31:50 - Why Aldi are so successful at surprise
34:28 - Why you need a system for your surprise
38:15 - The right balance of surprise
42:12 - When is shock necessary

Suso O'Brien, former CMO of Just Eat, joins us to discuss what the role of the modern CMO really looks like. Drawing on her experience helping scale Just Eat and the findings from a new CMO survey conducted with TikTok, Suso argues that today's marketing leaders need a completely different set of priorities.
We revisit the growth of Just Eat, the success of the iconic “Did Somebody Say…” campaign, and the role celebrity partnerships and sonic branding played in building the brand. But beyond the advertising, Suso shares why CMOs spend surprisingly little time on the work itself, why internal influence matters more than ever, and why managing expectations may be more important than managing brands.
The conversation also explores the lack of marketing representation at the top of organisations, the pressures facing today's CMOs, and Suso's framework for leading people through her five Cs of great management.
Timestamps

00:00 - Start
02:52 - The food delivery category in 2016
04:05 - The role marketing played in the growth of Just Eat
05:55 - Does “did somebody say?” translate globally?
07:26 - The celebrity strategy behind Just Eat
09:47 - The power of sonic branding
12:12 - What impact did the campaign have vs other growth levers for Just Eat
14:36 - CMOs rarely spend any time on the work
17:28 - The real 4 Ps of the CMO
19:06 - Discoveries from the CMO survey with TikTok
20:56 - Why the lack of marketing representation at the top of companies is worrying
22:00 - What skills are lacking in an organisation
23:08 - The short term pressure on the CMO
24:34 - How do you make the case to invest in long term
28:20 - The power of compounding creativity
29:04 - The CMO’s role is managing expectations, not brands
30:04 - Why CMO’s need to persuade internal stakeholders
36:10 - The #1 challenge CMO’s face
40:58 - Suso’s hardest challenges as Just Eat CMO
42:40 - Why Suso asked her colleagues for feedback when she left Just Eat
44:17 - 5 C’s of great people management
44:32 - 1: Care
45:30 - 2: Clarity
47:35 - 3. Calling it early
49:12 - 4. The cost of comfort
51:33 - 5: Constant feedback
53:25 - Suso’s advice to future CMOs

Jamie Domenici, CMO of Klaviyo, joins us to discuss why customer experience has become one of the most powerful drivers of growth. Drawing on lessons from nearly a decade at Salesforce and her experience joining Klaviyo just months before its IPO, Jamie shares how great brands create loyalty by obsessing over the customer.
We explore what marketers can learn from customer success teams, why events like Dreamforce are so memorable, and how Klaviyo has repositioned itself while building a competitive moat in an increasingly crowded market.
Jamie also shares her views on AI, the future workforce, the skills tomorrow's CMOs will need, and the difference between good marketing leaders and truly great ones.
Timestamps
00:00 - Start
01:05 - Jamie’s strange first job
02:26 - Best and worst customer experiences
05:56 - The power of a good customer experience
08:45 - Marketing lessons from customer success
11:48 - Marketing lessons from 10 years at Salesforce
13:05 - Why Dreamforce was a great example of good customer experience
14:46 - The key to a great keynote
21:56 - Joining Klaviyo just months before an IPO
24:28 - Repositioning a company
25:45 - How does B2C differ to B2B when it comes to CRM?
28:41 - How Klaviyo are building their moat
30:51 - Where is AI going to have the biggest impact?
32:19 - How are Klaviyo using AI in their product?
34:14 - How AI is going to change the workforce
35:42 - What skills will future CMOs be hiring for?
37:31 - The difference between a good CMO and a great CMO
39:17 - Why Klaviyo invest a lot in events
40:52 - The best advice Jamie has ever received