The Messy Truth About Tech and Testing Careers in 2025
In this episode, Richard and Vernon discuss various aspects of job stability in the tech industry post-pandemic, the impact of innovation on job longevity, and the dynamics of accidental management. They explore the changing landscape of tech roles, the importance of ratios between developers and testers in projects, and the evolving nature of go/no-go decisions in software releases. The conversation emphasizes the need for clear metrics and standards to facilitate smoother decision-making processes in tech teams.00:00 - Intro01:07 - Welcome to the Vernon Richard Emily Show01:35 - Our viral moment03:07 - Question: Do you think people are staying in tech jobs longer since the pandemic? The old time in role used to be about 2 years right?17:00 - Income worries and diversification20:20 - Question: I see loads of developers become accidental managers, but i don't think that's as common for testers - what do you think?23:40 - Can Testing specialists become Engineering Managers (and beyond)?26:06 - How does being a Quality Engineer impact your chances?28:25 - Lived experience vs coaching31:08 - We're already doing management and leadership32:19 - What career paths are open to people with a testing background?33:59 - Question: Do you think there is a good target ratio of dev:test professionals in greenfield projects? Brownfield projects etc. If not, what sort of thing do you think that depends on?34:40 - It depends! On the project demands35:20 - It depends! On what kind of people are in the team37:10 - It depends! On testability37:33 - And Rich's answer is...39:19 - Sometimes you can't coach your way out of a situation40:50 - It depends! On what good looks like41:25 - It depends! On where the company is in it's life44:35 - Question: My team release software to customers 1-2 times a week. Who do you think should be in that "go/no go" conversation?46:46 - It depends 🤦🏾♂️48:16 - go/no go meetings in 2002 versus 2025Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:01:35 - Our most viral video to dateIt's the short Sometimes it's best to quit your job05:02 - Gary Stevenson, economist, trader, authorGary's websiteGary's YouTube "Gary's Economics"Gary's book "The Trading Game"13:02 - Graham FreeburnHappy retirement Graham!17:00 - Here's the phrase Vernon butchered and what he was trying to convey28:41 - The definition of coachingThe International Coaching Federation (ICF) define coaching as: "Partnering with clients in a thought-provoking and creative process that inspires them to maximize their personal and professional potential."Here's Vernon explaining it during a presentation at Agile Testing Days37:10 - Resources about the 10 Ps of TestabilityArticle on testability featuring the 10 PsThe book Team Guide to Software Testability by Ash Winter & Rob Meaney
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56:52
Positioning and Selling Yourself in Your Teams
In this episode of the Vernon Richard Show, Richard and Vernon delve into the intricacies of career journeys in software testing, discussing the significance of job titles, the importance of positioning oneself within a role, and the challenges faced in consulting. They explore how to define one's role and impact, navigate client expectations, and the evolution of job descriptions in the tech industry. The conversation emphasizes the need for continuous learning and adapting to different contexts, ultimately highlighting the importance of effective communication and self-reflection in shaping a successful career.00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Career Journeys03:49 The Importance of Job Titles10:08 Positioning and Expectations in Roles20:37 Defining Roles and Responsibilities27:47 Evolution of Testing Roles29:09 Navigating Challenges in Testing30:08 The Role of Leadership in Quality Assurance31:09 Understanding Job Expectations in Consulting32:28 The Importance of Experience in Consulting34:38 Context Gathering for Effective Consulting36:33 Identifying Root Causes in Testing Issues37:25 Adapting Responses Based on Context38:51 The Art of Job Crafting41:38 Shifting Perspectives on Best Practices44:16 Balancing Expectations and Reality in Consulting47:17 Recognizing When to Walk Away48:39 The Impact of Context on Job Titles51:48 Reflecting on Skills Beyond Job Titles
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56:04
PeersCon 2025 Perspectives
SummaryIn this episode, Vernon and Richard reflect on their experiences at the PeersCon conference, discussing the engaging keynote speakers, insightful workshops, and the overall atmosphere of the event. They share their thoughts on various talks, emphasizing the importance of communication, quality, and personal growth in the software testing industry. The conversation highlights the value of community and collaboration, as well as the significance of learning from both successes and failures in one's career. In this episode, Vernon and Richard reflect on their experiences at PeersCon, discussing memorable moments, workshops attended, and the importance of communication in the testing field. They delve into specific workshops like Pipeline and Risk Storming, and the game 'Defend the Indefensible', which encourages critical thinking and perspective-taking. The conversation also touches on feedback for future events, emphasizing the need for a balance between communication and testing topics, and the importance of recognizing the efforts of event organizers.Chapters00:00 Introduction and Conference Overview03:42 Reflections on PeersCon and Community Engagement06:35 Keynote Highlights and Speaker Insights09:30 Workshops and Learning Experiences12:29 Communication and Quality in Software Development15:27 Personal Growth and Career Development18:22 Closing Thoughts and Future Events25:06 Exploring Engaging Talks at the Conference27:57 Tom's Journey: From Manufacturing to Software Testing29:10 Linda's Comedy of Errors: A Unique Perspective on Automation32:43 The Reality of Coding: Enjoyment vs. Competence39:37 Networking and Unexpected Encounters at the Venue42:57 Workshops: Enhancing Technical Understanding and Communication Skills52:17 The Importance of Communication in IT and Life54:39 Feedback and Constructive Criticism57:36 Balancing Communication and Testing in Conferences01:00:29 Enhancing Event Experience and Sponsor Engagement01:04:34 Acknowledging Organizers and Their Contributions01:08:34 Sustaining Affordability and Accessibility in EventsLinks to come!
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1:14:53
How Testers Can Thrive in CI/CD Without Being Gatekeepers
In this episode of the Vernon Richard Show, the hosts delve into the nuances of Continuous Delivery and Continuous Deployment, exploring how testing practices evolve in these environments. They discuss the skills required for testers, the importance of risk management, and the cultural shifts necessary for effective quality assurance. The conversation highlights the need for collaboration within teams and the role of testers as facilitators rather than gatekeepers. The episode concludes with reflections on the importance of understanding quality and risk in software development.Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:01:35 - Quality TalksCheck out their awesome new website02:37 - The Agile Testing Days ConferenceOh! Their Call For Papers is open until the end of March. You should submit!02:42 - Johnny J. JonesJohnny's LinkedIn03:23 - Continuous Delivery & Continuous DeploymentWhat is Continuous Delivery?What is Continuous Deployment?03:31 - Abby BangserAbby's LinkedIn05:24 - Keith KlainKeith's blogKeith's podcastKeith's LinkedIn23:51 - Dan Ashby's famous post called "Continuous Testing" (featuring his famous diagram!)28:45 - James Bach's Test Jumper conceptJames' websiteJames' LinkedIn31:20 - All of these people should probably change their last names to "Bourne"40:18 - James ChristieJames' blogJames' body of work regarding the Post Office Scandal43:37 - Trunk-Based Thierry de PauwThierry's websiteThierry's LinkedIn48:30 - Jerry Weinberg's 2nd Law of Consulting from his book The Secrets of Consulting"No matter how it looks at first, it's always a people problem."Find more of Jerry's quotes on this pageJerry's Wikipedia page (his books are highly recommended)Bonus links to further study on the topic:What's the difference between Continuous Delivery and Continuous Deployment?The book Continuous Delivery, seminal work on the topic by Dave Farley & Jez HumbleSpeaking of Dave Farley...You can visit his website to find links to allTheThingsHere's his excellent YouTube channel Modern Software EngineeringHe's written a second book Modern Software EngineeringSpeaking of Jez Humble...He wrote the excellent book Accelerate with lead author Dr. Nicole Forsgren (<- all of Dr. Nicole's work is recommended reading at this point)And here's his websiteI asked ChatGPT for some resources and it gave me this list (proceed with caution just in case!). 00:00 - Intro01:06 - Merch tangent02:53 - Today's topic:What skills and behaviours does a Tester need, in order to be successful when they work in a CI/CD context?What does testing look like in a team using CI/CD?04:08 - ⚽️ Footy04:40 - Compare and contrast07:00 - What conversation(s) needs to happen before "pressing the button" and who needs to be involved in it?08:25 - Deployed Vs Released13:37 - Monitoring and tooling to enable CI/CD practices17:25 - Where/how do reviews fit into this?20:38 - Back to Shift Left!23:51 - Where does the testing happen?24:36 - The link between chef Gordon Ramsey and software testing25:45 - What are we reeeally talking about here?27:09 - How to reframe things when someone makes the polarising claim "We don't need Testers in CI/CD/DevOps teams"29:35 - Q: So how would I test differently if I were a Tester in a CI/CD team? A: Test like Jason Bourne.32:00 - The value of having a tool belt and using it regularly33:06 - How to catch a unicorn? How to unbundle testing skills35:40 - This all loops back to risks & culture37:03 - Where would it be a bad idea to use Continuous Deployment?40:45 - Q: So how would I test differently if I were a Tester in a CI/CD team? A: Test like a Circus Ringmaster.42:39 - Moar Shift Left: Real Devs build on Main48:48 - Modern Vs Traditional mindsets50:30 - Quality enters the chat...51:00 - The relationship between risk and quality52:47 - Testing Vs Quality Engineering55:50 - ⚽️ Footy
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55:54
A Love Letter to Testing: What We Love About Our Work
In this episode, Vernon and Richard celebrate their love for the software testing community, discussing the importance of people, tools, teaching, and the thrill of conferences. They reflect on personal growth, the challenges of production issues, and the joy of mentoring others. The conversation emphasizes the connections made within the industry and the shared experiences that enrich their careers.Links to stuff we mentioned during the pod:10:28 - SeleniumThe Selenium websiteThe BiDi spec10:44 - Jason & SimonJason's LinkedInSimon's LinkedIn13:17 - James ThomasHere's an example of what I meanAnd another!Aaaaaand another!27:02 - The PEBCAK error27:28 Conferences27:58 - PeersCon 202528:17 - Agile Testing Days 202528:29 - Let's Test SAPlease DM if you can commit to going and/or know of companies that would be willing to sponsor!BONUS - The legendary Chris Kenst maintains Software Testing Conferences, which has a list of allTheConferences29:33 - Martin HynieMartin's newsletterMartin's LinkedIn00:00 - Intro01:11 - Is it our birthday yet?01:52 - The Forced Socio-Economic Day episode02:20 - What do we love about our careers?03:07 - We love PEOPLE04:39 - Different kids of friendship06:08 - Making a huge impact on people with tiny interactions08:18 - The benefit of being tool aware10:10 - We love TOOLS10:20 - Rich's favourite tool12:03 - Vern's favourite tool15:40 - We love the VARIETY18:21 - We love TEACHING19:58 - What does the balance look like between teaching, mentoring, and coaching in Rich's current role22:33 - We love CHALLENGE23:51 - Systems thinking and understanding how things work27:28 - We love CONFERENCES35:35 - Mutual appreciation ❤️36:28 - The Friendly Tester is Dead. Long Live Richard Bradshaw!
Vernon Richards and Richard Bradshaw discuss all things software testing, quality engineering and life in the world of software development. Plus our own personal journeys navigating our careers and lifes.
México