The Innovation Show

"You're gonna run up a hundred wrong hills, and you're still not gonna get a good understanding of the map."
Alexander Osterwalder, co-author of Value Proposition Design and founder of Strategyzer, returns for Part 2 of our series. Last week: which projects to retire. This week: value proposition design in the age of AI — why generative AI can formulate a brilliant value proposition, but only if you've done the homework it cannot do for you.
In this conversation, Alex reveals:
Why building fast with AI without validated customer jobs, pains and gains is "running up a hundred wrong hills"
The four foundations of an irresistible value proposition — and why even world-class brands can't show quantitative evidence for the first one
Why teams differentiate against competitors instead of through the customer's eyes
The Value Stack, Strategyzer's new tool for prioritising the benefits customers actually care about
Should you feed your secret formula into enterprise AI? Alex's two answers to the data-privacy dilemma
Why the fear of AI handing your value proposition to competitors is — for now — irrational
Why marketing teams "shouldn't be writing a word" — and how to turn Gen AI into rocket fuel instead of a shortcut
The B2B trap: designing for users when decision-makers sign the cheque
How a solo inventor should ABC-test differentiators and pricing with three landing pages
The Roger Federer analogy: why e-learning alone will never make you world-class
Why growth is a profession you learn, not a creative gift
00:00 Building Fast Up the Wrong Hill
00:25 Validate Customers with Evidence
01:07 A Word from Our Sponsor, Kyndryl
01:45 How Teams Misuse AI in Value Proposition Design 
02:59 Why a Value Proposition Is Not a Writing Exercise
03:55 The Four Ingredients of an Irresistible Value Proposition 
05:59 Benefits Backed by Proof
06:50 Differentiate Through the Customer's Eyes
07:58 The Process and the Playbook
10:06 AI Only Works After the Homework 
11:55 The Data Privacy Dilemma
13:04 Safe Models and Why Your Value Proposition Is Unique
16:41 Stop Wordsmithing, Start Iterating
17:05 The Gen AI Playbook, Step by Step 
18:58 Inside the Playbook Library
19:52 B2B: Users vs Decision-Makers
22:05 Listener Discount and Webinar Details
23:07 Advice for Builders and Entrepreneurs
26:11 Discipline Beats Creativity
27:02 The Roger Federer Coach Analogy
30:07 The Party Trick: Evaluating Business Ideas
31:51 Wrap Up and Thanks to Kyndryl
Explore the Strategyzer playbook library at https://www.strategyzer.com — Innovation Show listeners get 20% off with the code INNOVATIONSHOW20.
This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com.
Sign up for the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com/institute and send us a screenshot for a chance to win a copy of Value Proposition Design, with thanks to Kyndryl.
About The Innovation Show: the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Hosted by Aidan McCullen, author of Undisruptable, it brings you conversations with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation and leadership.
Website: https://theinnovationshow.io Substack (Thursday Thought): https://thethursdaythought.substack.com
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen

"Spreadsheets are a fantasy made explicit. They're not a metric. What you can measure is the evidence that the business case could work."
Alexander Osterwalder, creator of the Business Model Canvas, CEO of Strategyzer and author of The Invincible Company, Testing Business Ideas and Value Proposition Design, returns to The Innovation Show. He walks Aidan McCullen through the evidence-based innovation playbook he uses with companies like Honeywell to decide which growth projects to fund, which to change, and which to retire — so you get a real funnel, not a tunnel.
In this conversation, Alex reveals:
• Why every upfront business case is "pure fantasy" — and what to measure instead
• The five levels of evidence, from what customers say to what they actually do
• How Honeywell's Growth Symposiums fund projects on scorecards of evidence, not opinions
• Why LEGO Movies started at zero on every score while LEGO Friends started at level-five feasibility
• The explore vs exploit trap: why 90% of companies judge new ideas with "exploit glasses" on
• Amazon's scale from new warehouses to Kindle to AWS — and why AWS was never a business case
• Why engineers build too fast in the age of AI, and why needs and willingness to pay come first
• The "Mark said we know" technique that makes faith-based investing explicit
• What makes an entrepreneurial leader, from Jeff Bezos to Logitech's Bracken Darrell
• The move from books to playbooks: the say-do cycle and the market-readiness assessment, demonstrated live
Chapters:
00:00 Scorecard Of Evidence
02:00 Oscar The Cat
03:00 Welcoming Alex Osterwalder
04:00 From Books To Playbooks
06:00 Honeywell Growth Symposiums
08:00 Business Cases Are Fantasy
10:00 Test Needs And Willingness To Pay
13:00 Five Levels Of Evidence
16:00 Evidence Scorecards Per Idea
17:00 LEGO Movies Versus LEGO Friends
20:00 Explore Versus Exploit Mindset
24:00 The Dual Mindset Leader
27:00 Innovation Theatre Confession
30:00 Playbook Demo Market Readiness
32:38 Scoring Customer Evidence
34:09 Leader Evidence Conversations
36:19 Practical Wrap Up
39:00 Where To Find Alex
Find Alex and the Strategyzer playbook library at https://www.strategyzer.com
This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com.
Win a copy of one of Alex Osterwalder's books: sign up for the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com/institute and send us a screenshot to be in with a chance, with thanks to Kyndryl.
About The Innovation Show: the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Hosted by Aidan McCullen, author of Undisruptable, it brings you conversations with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation and leadership.
Website: https://theinnovationshow.io
Substack (Thursday Thought): https://thethursdaythought.substack.com
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen

"If you launch more projects than you finish, you're a bad leader. Your role is not about launching projects — it's about finishing them."
Antonio Nieto-Rodriguez, creator of the project economy concept and author of Powered by Projects, joins Aidan McCullen to explain why agile — a 20-year-old idea — is no longer enough, and why the next evolution is the project-driven organization (PDO): a company rearchitected around dynamic, empowered, cross-functional project teams.
In this conversation, Antonio reveals:
Why EY's Project Everest collapsed despite a perfect plan — and what it says about ego at the top
The structural blind spot that undermined Nike's digital transformation
The robot hairdresser that shocked a luxury company's C-suite — and why "safe" jobs aren't
Why COVID briefly turned every surviving company into a project-driven organization
How Bill Anderson is dismantling hierarchy and approval steps at Bayer
The insurance company that ring-fenced €50 million for crazy ideas — and why employees only asked for €2 million
The bank that had Revolut's idea first, then killed it in the budgeting cycle
Why "are you crazy?" is the best compliment an idea can receive
The Toyota-style kill switch every transformation needs — and why 90% done is done
How Alan Mulally's all-green KPIs at Ford exposed a culture that couldn't ask for help
Chapters:
00:00 Lead Through Transformation
01:13 Sponsor Message Kyndryl
01:40 Why Projects Really Fail
02:03 Meet Antonio And Project Economy
07:04 Projects As Your Future
08:33 Case Study EY Project Everest
10:29 Case Study Nike Structure Fails
13:09 Rethinking Org Structure For AI
15:02 AI And Robots Disrupt Work
17:29 From Agile To Project Driven
21:57 Change Fatigue Too Many Projects
26:02 Co Creation And Leadership Focus
27:37 Great Resignation And PDO Shift
29:09 Burnout After Covid
30:12 Bayer And Haier Blueprint
34:09 Empower Teams To Stop
36:09 From Projects To PDO
39:19 Finish Early Kill Fast
42:42 Exponential Crazy Bets
50:40 Transparency And Town Halls
56:09 Final Advice And Wrap
Find Antonio Nieto-Rodriguez at https://antonionietorodriguez.com and on LinkedIn.
This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com.
Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Powered by Projects, with thanks to Kyndryl: https://thethursdaythought.substack.com
About The Innovation Show: the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Hosted by Aidan McCullen, author of Undisruptable, it brings you conversations with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation and leadership.
Website: https://theinnovationshow.io
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen

"Structural uncertainty is simple. The game itself is in question. The playing field is in question. You're no longer playing with uncertainty inside the rules — the rules are the thing that's moving."
Rita McGrath wrote The End of Competitive Advantage and gave us transient advantage. Sangeet Paul Choudary wrote Reshuffle and won the 2025 Thinkers50 Strategy Award. Aidan McCullen puts them in the same room to ask a question neither can answer alone: in an age of AI, is advantage getting shorter, or are a small number of firms locking in something far more durable by making the rules everyone else has to play by?
In this conversation, Rita and Sangeet reveal:
Why the two founding assumptions of strategy — that industries have boundaries, and that equilibrium is normal — are now absurd
What Carlota Perez's turning point framework says about where we are, and why data and intelligence are the new oil
The investor who always bet against Netflix, and the one thing he never believed the film studios would be stupid enough to do
How Netflix beat Blockbuster before streaming existed, by serving local demand with national supply
Why Tesla went vertically integrated in the decade everyone else preached openness
How Reliance Jio commoditised its own cash cow, took 400 million users, and collapsed an industry from 17 players to three
The difference between a rule maker and a rule taker, and why rule takers are condemned to run from one transient advantage to the next
Why roughly 93% of corporate assets were tangible in 1975 and almost exactly the reverse is true today
How Binah.ai deleted the blood draw, the lab, the chemicals and the actuary from life insurance pricing
Sangeet's test for anyone using AI at work: are you working for the model, or is the model working for you?
Why translators are now paid half as much to do the harder half of the job
Rita's SDSS times two: stop doing stupid stuff, then start doing smart stuff
00:00 Sponsor Message
00:25 Strategy Rules Rewritten
01:26 Meet Rita and Sangeet
03:22 Strategy Origins and Transience
05:25 Turning Point in Capitalism
07:25 Capabilities and Competitive Insulation
10:38 Platforms and Network Effects
16:09 Seeing Hidden Advantages
21:14 No Silver Bullets in Strategy
27:38 Policy and Regulation in Transition
32:33 Social Unrest Warning Signs
34:35 Outsourcing Strategic Lens
36:40 Structural Uncertainty Era
38:41 Reliance Jio Rulemaking
42:17 Challenging Strategy Frameworks
44:04 Beyond Five Forces Today
48:26 First Principles Over Models
54:07 Learning Discipline In AI
58:15 Make AI Work For You
01:03:16 Wrap Up And Resources
 
About Rita McGrath Rita McGrath is a longtime professor at Columbia Business School, a Thinkers50 top-ten management thinker and winner of their number one award for strategy. She is the author of The End of Competitive Advantage, Seeing Around Corners, Discovery-Driven Growth, MarketBusters and The Entrepreneurial Mindset, and she hosts the Thought Sparks podcast. https://www.ritamcgrath.com
About Sangeet Paul Choudary Sangeet Paul Choudary is the founder of Platformation Labs and the author of Reshuffle: Who Wins When AI Restacks the Knowledge Economy, winner of the 2025 Thinkers50 Strategy Award. He co-authored Platform Revolution and wrote Platform Scale, and his work on platforms has been named by Harvard Business Review as one of the top ten ideas in strategy. https://reshufflebook.com and https://platforms.substack.com
About the Host Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation, and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen
This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com.
Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Reshuffle, with thanks to Kyndryl: https://thethursdaythought.substack.com
About The Innovation Show: the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Hosted by Aidan McCullen, author of Undisruptable, it brings you conversations with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation and leadership.
Website: https://theinnovationshow.io
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen

"You don't have to be a methodological genius. These are patterns — 43 simple patterns that anyone can use to include every voice in shaping what happens next."
Keith McCandless, co-developer of Liberating Structures and co-author of The Surprising Power of Liberating Structures, joins Aidan McCullen to explain why most meetings are either over-controlled or under-controlled — and how simple shifts in everyday interaction can unleash a culture of innovation from the frontline to the C-suite.
In this conversation, Keith reveals:
Why the first field test of Liberating Structures happened in hospitals fighting superbugs — with fifteen languages spoken on a single unit
The Big Five conventional structures (presentation, managed discussion, status report, brainstorm, open discussion) — and why every one of them quietly fails
How one father went from a year of monosyllabic answers to an hour-long conversation with his teenage daughter using Creative Destruction
Why 1-2-4-All fixed a two-year meeting nightmare for twenty project managers in Paris in half an hour
Why repetition is a source of innovation — and how thinking alone first defeats anchoring bias
The Ecocycle map a healthcare group crumpled, covered in Post-its, and reused every quarter for a year
The VA hospital leader who declared mid-session, "All the decisions we just made are final"
Why influencing culture beats changing culture — and what the adjacent possible has to do with it
How Liberating Structures moved online with nothing more than a tech host and breakout rooms
The lesson from Dee Hock, the chaordic organisation, and the war language that limits our world
00:00 Sponsor Message
00:27 Liberating Structures Intro
01:27 Messy Work Environments
02:21 Superbugs Field Test
03:35 What Are They
05:02 Complexity Lens
07:52 Influencing Culture
12:31 Adjacent Possible Innovation
14:18 Personal Life Applications
15:59 Creative Destruction TRIZ
19:28 Neurodiversity Inclusion
22:58 Big Five Meeting Traps
30:27 Microstructures Online
32:26 Online Facilitation Tips
36:50 1-2-4-All In Action
42:25 Eco Cycle Strategy Map
47:39 Liberating Leadership
52:45 Wrap Up And Resources
53:54 Sponsor Thanks Outro
Find Keith McCandless at https://www.liberatingstructures.com — the full repertoire, the app (with at least 33 structures on your phone), and the new Liberating Structures Fieldbook, co-authored with Nancy White.
Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack: https://thethursdaythought.substack.com
About The Innovation Show: the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Hosted by Aidan McCullen, author of Undisruptable, it brings you conversations with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation and leadership.
About the Host: Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation, and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen
Website: https://theinnovationshow.io
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen