The Innovation Show

"These are the most important people you've never heard of."
After interviewing more than 50 serial innovators inside the world's largest mature companies, Bruce Vojak knows something most boards don't: a tiny minority of people — roughly 1 in 500 inside a large firm — quietly create the breakthrough products that fund everything else. They have no formal mandate. They are often almost fired. And without them, the S-curve flatlines.
Bruce is co-author of Serial Innovators: How Individuals Create and Deliver Breakthrough Innovations in Mature Firms (with Ray Price and Abby Griffin), founder of Breakthrough Innovation Advisors, and a former engineering executive who has spent over a decade studying how breakthrough innovation actually happens inside big organisations. This is part one of a multi-part series with host Aidan McCullen on Bruce's life's work.
In this conversation, Bruce reveals:
Why the humble carrot peeler is the clearest example of how innovation redefines the basis of competition
How Tom Osborne at Procter & Gamble almost lost his job twice — before launching the billion-dollar Always Ultra brand
The Tom Osborne quote every product team should hang on the wall: his products were "love letters to his customers"
Why it is not marketing, it is "customering" — and why customer-driven beats market-driven every time
The three roles inside the stage-gate process — inventor, champion, implementer — and why serial innovators play across all three
Why stage-gate is brilliant for incremental innovation and lethal for breakthrough work
The MP5 model: motivation, personality, perspectives, preparation, process and politics — what serial innovators bring vs. what they develop
Why the politics is the work — and why pushing the boulder up the hill is Sisyphean by design
The hiring insight that changes everything: "I want people who want to do the work innovators do, not people who want to be an innovator"
How Iain McGilchrist's master and emissary, Charles Handy's S-curves and Thomas Kuhn's paradigms all converge inside one good innovator
Why early success is a curse — and what to do when your organisation has forgotten how it found its first product
Chapters:
00:00 Why Serial Innovators Matter
00:31 Sponsor and Series Setup
01:11 Meet Bruce Vojak
02:45 Defining Innovation
04:08 Carrot Peeler Breakthroughs
05:54 Market Expansion Examples
07:56 What Is a Serial Innovator
08:44 Hiring and Spotting Innovators
10:32 Curse of Early Success
15:19 Punished for Innovating
17:34 Tom Osborne at P&G
19:53 Digging Deep for Insight
22:18 Bootlegging to Launch Ultra
27:25 When Innovators Check Out
33:17 Incremental vs Breakthrough
36:04 S Curves and Culture Tension
42:03 Stage Gate vs Iteration
43:24 Switch to Video and Diagrams
44:30 Stage Gate Overview
45:09 Stage Gate Basics
46:58 Innovation Roles Explained
48:21 Serial Innovators Across Roles
50:34 Customer Driven Discovery Loop
53:37 Seeing Patterns Metaphors
55:13 Motivation And Role Friction
01:02:50 MP5 Model Origins
01:04:33 Traits Motivation Politics
01:16:07 Innovation Process Diagram 1.7
01:21:57 Wrap Up Sponsor Outro
About Bruce Vojak Bruce is co-author of Serial Innovators and Innovation Code, founder of Breakthrough Innovation Advisors, and former Associate Dean for Administration at the University of Illinois College of Engineering. He advises executive teams and boards on how to find, support and unleash serial innovators inside mature firms.
Website: https://breakthrough-innovation-advisors.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bvojak/
Book: Serial Innovators: How Individuals Create and Deliver Breakthrough Innovations in Mature Firms
https://amzn.to/4f7Y85q
About The Innovation Show The Thinkers50-recognised podcast hosted by Aidan McCullen — author of Undisruptable, keynote speaker and former pro athlete — where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Conversations with the world's leading authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, transformation, leadership, AI, creativity and the ideas shaping tomorrow.
This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com.
Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Serial Innovators, with thanks to Kyndryl: https://thethursdaythought.substack.com
Follow and listen:
Website: https://theinnovationshow.io
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YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen

"Organisations love innovation, but they hate their innovators."
Jeff and Staney DeGraff return to The Innovation Show to close out Aidan McCullen's DeGraff trilogy with their book The Art of Change. Their argument is direct: change rarely fails because of bad strategy or weak execution. It fails because leaders bring the wrong mindset — treating change like a linear project when change is actually a paradox to be held.
In this conversation, Jeff and Staney reveal:
Why the man who saved Operation Warp Speed got passed over for promotion — and what his story tells every innovator about the cost of being right
The Jonas Salk warning every change-maker should hear: they won't notice, then they'll say you're doing it wrong, then they'll call you unprofessional, then they'll take credit for your work
Why apathy and alignment are the deadliest signs in any organisation
The seven core paradoxes of change — and the four-step paradox mindset cycle that breaks the deadlock
Why facts don't change minds (the Harriet Beecher Stowe story Lincoln told to prove it)
How Sears actually invented the digital economy and how mindset cost them the future
Why "deviance first, alignment later" is the funnel every leader gets backwards
The CIO joke that isn't funny: Career Is Over as soon as you take the job
Why the first pancake is never a good pancake — and what FAIL really stands for
Chapters: 00:00 Innovation in the AI era 01:03 Sponsor and book intro 01:40 Why change fails 02:36 Trilogy origins 06:12 Paradox and mindset 07:58 Why organisations punish their innovators 10:28 Luis, Rapid X, and Operation Warp Speed 16:52 Meaning over happiness 18:06 Time, not targets 19:45 The paradox mindset cycle 24:34 Marriage and money paradox 28:15 Conflict fuels change 32:27 Missed futures examples 36:44 Practice beats theatre 38:04 Builders versus bureaucrats 41:05 Skin in the game 42:35 Blocked by superiors 43:45 Leaders spot talent 44:49 Disruptors and failure 48:05 Boundaries create freedom 51:43 Innovation needs hideouts 53:59 Stories build culture 59:45 The seven paradoxes explained 01:07:38 Deviance, then alignment 01:13:10 The paradox mindset cycle 01:18:26 Final takeaways and wrap
About Jeff and Staney DeGraff Jeff DeGraff is the "Dean of Innovation" — Clinical Professor of Management at the Ross School of Business, University of Michigan, founder of the Innovatrium, and author of multiple bestselling books on creative leadership. Staney DeGraff is co-founder of the Innovatrium and Jeff's longtime collaborator. Together they've worked with half the Fortune 500 on what it actually takes to make change stick.
📘 The Art of Change — https://amzn.to/48mhX54
🌐 https://jeffdegraff.com
About The Innovation Show
The Innovation Show with Aidan McCullen is the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Each week, Aidan sits down with world-class authors, scientists, and practitioners to call out the "Emperor is naked" moments and explore disruption, transformation, leadership, and the ideas shaping tomorrow.
Connect 🌐 https://theinnovationshow.io
📨 Substack (and a chance to win a copy of The Creative Mindset): https://thethursdaythought.substack.com
🎧 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669
🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450
🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen
Sponsor
This series is brought to you by Kyndryl. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com.
#ParadoxMindset #JeffDeGraff #TheArtOfChange #Innovation #ChangeManagement #Leadership #TheInnovationShow #AidanMcCullen #Thinkers50 #InnovationPodcast #LeadershipPodcast #DisruptionTheory

Description:
Creativity isn't reserved for geniuses—it's a skill you can learn, practice, and compound over time.
In this episode of The Innovation Show, Aidan McCullen sits down with Jeff and Staney DeGraff to explore their practical framework for everyday creativity: the C.R.E.A.T.E. method. Based on decades of research and real-world application, they break down how innovation actually happens—not through lightning bolts, but through small, iterative wins.
From clarifying the real problem to evaluating ideas effectively, this conversation reframes creativity as a disciplined, learnable process.
Sponsored by Kyndryl, this episode also includes a giveaway for subscribers.
What You'll Learn:
Why creativity is a learnable skill (not a talent)
The power of small wins and iterative thinking
How to identify the real problem before solving it
Techniques like SCAMPER, analogies, and storyboarding
Why evaluation—not ideation—often determines success
How constraints and failure fuel innovation
The C.R.E.A.T.E. Framework:
Clarify – Define the real problem through iteration
Replicate – Reapply ideas across domains
Elaborate – Generate ideas using creative techniques
Associate – Connect ideas through analogy and systems thinking
Translate – Turn ideas into compelling stories
Evaluate – Select the best ideas using structured methods
Timestamps:
00:00 Sponsor and Giveaway 00:45 Creativity as Learnable Skill 04:59 Find Your Creative Rhythm 11:11 Constraints and Small Wins 20:57 Clarify the Real Problem 25:25 Replicate and Reapply Ideas 29:01 Elaborate With Wordplay 36:43 Associate Through Analogies 40:43 Translate Into Story 46:09 Evaluate Ideas Wisely
Featured Book: The Creative Mindset by Jeff & Staney DeGraff
Find the DeGraffs: https://jeffdegraff.com

Aidan McCullen is a Thinkers50 Innovation Award winner, keynote speaker Ireland, and host of The Innovation Show—the only podcast ever to receive a Thinkers50 award.

What if the real driver of innovation isn't alignment—but conflict?
In this episode of The Innovation Show, Aidan McCullen is joined by Jeff and Staney DeGraff, co-authors of The Innovation Code, to explore a powerful idea: innovation emerges from the tension between opposing perspectives—not from consensus.
Drawing on decades of research and real-world application, they introduce four archetypes that shape how individuals and organisations innovate:
The Artist (creation & ideas)
The Engineer (process & execution)
The Athlete (performance & results)
The Sage (values & culture)
Each brings strengths—and blind spots.
The key? Not eliminating conflict—but orchestrating it.
 In this episode:
Why alignment can actually kill innovation
The role of constructive conflict in high-performing teams
How different mindsets clash—and why that's essential
The lifecycle of innovation and who leads at each stage
Why organisations fail when they can't change their worldview
How to build cultures of adaptability and reinvention
Featured Book:
The Innovation Code by Jeff & Staney DeGraff
Find the DeGraffs: https://jeffdegraff.com
Aidan McCullen is a Thinkers50 Innovation Award winner, keynote speaker Ireland, and host of The Innovation Show—the only podcast ever to receive a Thinkers50 award.

AI is triggering a "big bang" in how organizations operate—and those that adapt fastest will win.
In this episode, Stephen Wunker and Jonathan Brill explore the concept of the Octopus Organization, where intelligence is distributed, decisions happen at the edge, and workflows—not jobs—are automated. Drawing on biology, they explain how autonomy, governance, and visibility can coexist to unlock speed, resilience, and innovation.
The discussion dives into overcoming organizational debt, avoiding groupthink and analysis paralysis, and shifting from rigid hierarchies to adaptive "kill web" structures. Real-world examples—from L'Oréal's rapid product cycles to AI-powered patent creation at Deep Invent—highlight how companies are already transforming.
This episode is essential listening for leaders looking to redesign their organizations for the AI era.