The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant

In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant dive into the return‑to‑office debate and argue that most conversations are stuck at the wrong level. Instead of asking “How many days in the office?”, they ask, “What problem are you actually trying to solve?”

They explore evidence on hybrid work, weak‑tie innovation, culture and belonging, and why some leaders still cling to “butts in seats” as a proxy for performance. Along the way, they introduce a systems‑thinking “iceberg” tool for getting below the surface of policy fights to the patterns, structures, and mental models driving them.

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

0:00 - What’s Surprising Us About This Podcast? 

1:49 - Return to Office 

22:06 - Challenging Your Return to Office Mental Model

34:15 - Birth Order

40:18 - Tradeoff Between Authenticity and Editing

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/peps.12641

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/worklife-with-adam-grant-the-dos-and-donts/id1346314086?i=1000565464077

https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/workplace/the-real-meaning-of-freedom-at-work-11633704877

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/381373698_Hybrid_working_from_home_improves_retention_without_damaging_performance

https://hbr.org/2014/01/to-raise-productivity-let-more-employees-work-from-home

https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/seven-truths-about-hybrid-work-and-productivity/

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-effects-of-remote-work-on-collaboration-among-Yang-Jaffe/bff6dabad6d264c0f34678a788e20df1b015656d

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2041386614564105

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/44605966_The_Strength-of-Weak-Ties_Perspective_on_Creativity_A_Comprehensive_Examination_and_Extension

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~jure/pub/papers/granovetter73ties.pdf

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1802407115

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/361135288_Remote_Collaboration_Fuses_Fewer_Breakthrough_Ideas

https://oms-www.files.svdcdn.com/production/downloads/academic/Disrupting-Science-Upload-2022-4.pdf

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4675401

https://www.atlassian.com/blog/distributed-work/intentional-togetherness-research

https://donellameadows.org/archives/leverage-points-places-to-intervene-in-a-system/

https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/coming-to-a-new-awareness-of-organizational-culture/

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10.1080/10720537.2026.2613112?needAccess=true

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1956-04524-000

https://www.nber.org/papers/w30866

https://www.amazon.com/Originals-How-Non-Conformists-Move-World/dp/014312885X

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1506451112

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From classrooms and locker rooms to workplaces and social media, Adam and Brené trace how shame and humiliation are used to control behavior and even fuel violence. They explore what causes shame, why our self-protective responses backfire, and how we can handle it more effectively. They also unpack the messy overlap between imposter syndrome and cultural pressures toward self-doubt.

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

Chapter Titles + Timestamps:


0:00 - Introduction


2:10 - The One, Two, Threes of Shame


8:52 - The New Research on Humiliation


14:04 - What Is Humiliation?


18:30 - Why Don’t People Outgrow Shame?


29:09 - How to Help People Out of Shame?


38:05 - Reconnecting Your Prefrontal Cortex Post-Shame


42:55 - How Does Shame Relate to Imposter Syndrome?


50:10 - Biggest Takeaways About Shame, Guilt, Humiliation, and Embarrassment

Why Feelings of Guilt May Signal Leadership Potential - Marina Krakovsky, 2012, Insights by Stanford Business (Introducing the work of Schaumberg) 

Unwanted identities: A key variable in shame-anger links and gender differences in shame - Ferguson et al., Sex Roles

Humiliation: Causes, correlates, and consequences - Elison & Harter, 2007, from The self‑conscious emotions: Theory and research 

Healing Humiliation: From Reaction to Creative Action - Hartling & Linder, 2016, Journal of Counseling & Development Shame and Humiliation: From Isolation to Relational Transformation - Hartling et al., Stone Center for Developmental Services and Studies

Strengthening resilience in a risky world: It’s all about relationships - Hartling, 2003, Women & Therapy 

Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome - Ruchika Tulshyan & Jodi-Ann Burey, 2021, Harvard Business Review

How imposter syndrome can be your superpower - MIT Sloan Office Of Communications, 2025 (Introducing the work of Basima Tewfik)

Unmasking the Impostor - MIT Sloan Office of Communications, 2025 (Tewfik, Debunking 4 myths) 

Listening to shame, Brené Brown, 2012, TED

The Power of Vulnerability, Brené Brown, 2011, TED

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Today's episode is about learning to sit with uncertainty. The episode opens with a discussion of listener questions on how to handle risk, the ingredients of a great apology, and why people stay loyal to relationships and organizations that quietly drain them. Then Brené and Adam turn to uncertainty – how our brains are wired for a threat response, what intolerance of uncertainty actually is, and why it can drive people toward authoritarian leaders.  

You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

0:00 - Introduction and Guest Questions

3:20 - Is Risk Something to Review or Reveal

13:40 - Why do People Stay Loyal to Bad Relationships?

22:28 - Strategies for Apologizing and Repair

32:33 - Is Uncertainty a Strength or Deficit for Leaders?

40:15 - Intolerance for Uncertainty

52:00 - Terror Management Theory and our Response to Uncertainty

59:50 - How Can We Manage Uncertainty

1:05:00 - Closing

Show Notes:

Capabilities, Cognition and Inertia: Evidence from Digital Imaging - Tripsas and Gavetti, 2000, Harvard Business School (Polaroid Study)

The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth - Amy Edmondson, 2019, Book

Is it Safe to Speak Up at Work? - Adam Grant and Amy Edmonson, July 2021, Worklife with Adam Grant Podcast

Anchored, Aligned, Accountable: A Framework for Transcending Bullsh*t and Transforming Our Lives and Work (Foreword by Brené Brown) - Aiko Bethea, 2026, Book

Predicting Exit Voice Loyalty and Neglect - Withey and Cooper, 1989, Administrative Science Quarterly

Exit, Voice, and Loyalty: Responses to Decline in Firms, Organizations, and States -  Albert Hirschman,1970, Book

The Decision Lab: System Justification Theory

The Secrets of a Great Apology - Adam Grant and Beth Polin, 2025, WorkLife with Adam Grant Podcast

The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships - Harriet Lerner, 2025, Book

I’m Sorry: How to Apologize and Why It Matters, Part 1 of 2 - Brené Brown and Harriet Lerner, 2020, Unlocking Us with Brene Brown Podcast

Conclave - Robert Harris, 2016, Book

A Comprehensive Analysis of COVID-19 Misinformation, Public Health Impacts, and Communication Strategies: Scoping Review - Kisa, 2024, Journal of Medical Internet Research  

Into the Unknown: A Review and Synthesis of Contemporary Models Involving Uncertainty - Carleton, 2016, Journal of Anxiety Disorders

Conceptual Models of Generalized Anxiety Disorder - Fisher and Wells, 2011, Psychiatric Annals 

The Other Side of Change: Who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans - Maya Shankar, 2026, Book  

Aftereffects of Stress on Human Performance and Social Behavior: A Review of Research and Theory - Cohen (Includes the work of Glass and Singer), 1980, Carnegie Mellon Research University

Hofstede's Cultural Dimensions on Uncertainty Avoidance

Compensatory Conviction in the Face of Personal Uncertainty: Going to Extremes and Being Oneself - Mcgregor et al., 2001, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology

Are Needs to Manage Uncertainty and Threat Associated With Political Conservatism or Ideological Extremity? - Jost et al, 2007, Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin

The Causes and Consequences of a Need For Self-esteem: A Terror Management Theory - Greenberg, Pyszczynski, & Solomon, 1986, Book chapter

Foolproof: Why We Fall for Misinformation and How to Build Immuninity - Sander van der Linden, 2023, Book

Utterly Humbled by Mystery - Richard Rohr, 2006, NPR Morning Edition

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What happens when your confidence outruns your competence? Brené and Adam start with freestyle skiing champ Eileen Gu’s extraordinary Olympic press conference and use it to explore metacognition—how to notice your thinking, question it, and change it on purpose. They dig into the Dunning–Kruger effect, calibration, journaling, and feedback, discuss why we’re so bad at estimating timelines, and consider how “I’ve got this” energy can quietly wreck projects, relationships, and learning. From pickleball and ping pong to therapy and team meetings, this episode is about building the inner game of better thinking without losing your nerve along the way.

You can find the Curiosity Shop on YouTube⁠ and Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop).

Chapters:

0:00 - Introductions

3:45 - Eileen Gu’s Metacognition  

12:22 - What is Metacognition? 

25:10 - What is Dunning-Kruger?

38:14 - Time Estimation and The Planning Fallacy 

44:36 - Metacognition and Dunning-Kruger Final Thoughts 

58:17 - Wrap up

Shownotes:

I hate minimalism - Hank Green, TikTok

Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Book 

Metacognition and Cognitive Monitoring: A New Area of Cognitive-Developmental Inquiry - Flavell, 1979

Explaining the Dunning-Kruger effect and overcoming overconfidence with David Dunning - Adam Grant, 2024, Worklife with Adam Grant

Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know - Adam Grant, 2021, Book

Intuitive Prediction: Biases and Corrective Procedures - Kahneman & Tversky, 1979, Office of Naval Research

Daniel Kahneman Doesn't Trust Your Intuition - Adam Grant, 2023,  Re:Thinking with Adam Grant 

The Story Rumble Process: A Guide for Groups and Teams - Brené Brown, Dare to Lead, 2018

The learning benefits of teaching: A retrieval practice hypothesis - Koh, 2018

Hidden Potential: The Science of Achieving Greater Things - Adam Grant, 2023, Book

Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments - Kruger & Dunning, 1999, Cornell University

The Inner Game of Tennis - The Classic Guide to the Mental Side of Peak Performance - Timothy Gallwey, 1974, Book

Charlotte Harpur and Eileen Gu, Final Press Conference, 2026 Winter Olympics, Milano, Italy.
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This week, Brené and Adam are live at SXSW! They explore why so many people are vulnerable to narcissistic leaders. The conversation covers the conditions that breed narcissistic leadership, the roles of shame and fear, and how to survive a narcissistic boss, and what it means to lead with mission over ego.

You can find The Curiosity Shop on YouTube and Instagram (@thecuriosityshop).

Chapters:

0:00 - Introduction

3:14 - Why People Are Vulnerable to Narcissistic Leaders

12:21 - Shame-Based Fear

18:04 - Do We Think About Emotions Wrong?

19:21 - Undue Credit and the Narcissistic Leader

26:00 - Mission Over Ego

29:52 - How to Manage a Narcissistic Boss

39:18 - Anxiety as a Path to Narcissism

47:45 - Judging Impairs Judgement

1:02:20 - Closing

Show Notes:

Adam Grant, Why We Fall for Narcissistic Leaders, Starting in Grade School, NYT 2025.

O'Reilly et al. 2001 When 'Me' Trumps 'We': Narcissistic Leaders and the Cultures They Create, 2021.

Brené Brown, "Shame shields" in The Dare to Lead Glossary: Key Language skills, tools, and practices. (pg. 15-16)

Bagozzi et al. 2003 (A study on cross-cultural differences in reaction to shame)

Brené Brown, Dan Pink on The Power of Regret, Dare to Lead, 2022

We're The Millers (Trailer) 2013, Awkward Roadtrip Moments: No Ragrets

George Saunders, "Failures of Kindness", Convocation Speech, 2013

Emily Grijalva et al. 2020 (A study of the impact of narcissim on NBA team performance)

How Brené Brown and Lumen CEO Kate Johnson Sparked This Telecom Comeback, WSJ Leadership Institute, 2025 (11:25)

Adam Grant, Unless You're Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Adam Grant 2016 NYT

My response to Adam Grant’s New York Times Op/ED: Unless You're Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Brené Brown LinkedIn 2016

Watts et al, 2014 (A study of grandiose narcissism and vulnerable narcissism in U.S. Presidents)
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