The Symbolic World

In this conversation, I sit down with Stephen Roach on the Makers and Mystics podcast to explore why our stories feel exhausted — and what that reveals about our cultural moment. We talk about the end of the post–World War II narrative, the collapse of the hero (and even the anti-hero), and how storytelling has drifted. We also discuss fairy tales, monsters, AI, and the future of art.

Let me know what you think in the comments and come join us at the Breath and the Clay conference, a creative arts gathering in Winston Salem, NC March 20-22, 2026: http://www.thebreathandtheclay.com/

YouTube version of this episode: https://youtu.be/Xbr6XQlspGQ

------------------------
Another opportunity to come together and meet is the Symbolic World Summit 2026! Speakers include Fr. Josiah Trenham, Mary Harrington, Dn. Seraphim Rohlin, myself, and others.
Date: May 14-16
Place: Broadview Heights, OH
Buy your tickets now and get $50 off with the early bird sale. Don't miss out: https://symbolicworldsummit.com/
Hope to see you there.

🎧 Listen to and review The Symbolic World podcast:
-Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0gI8bUwPtT3gkduHqNh6M5
-Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-symbolic-world/id1386867488 
🔓 Become a patron to support us and unlock exclusive monthly symbolism content: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau  

Timestamps:
00:00 - Coming up
01:21 - Intro music
01:47 - Introduction
03:08 - Narrative exhaustion
04:38 - End of the WW2 narrative
08:40 - Fairy tales
11:09 - Jonathan's retelling
13:17 - Art and ideology
17:41 - Complexity in religious art
21:32 - Trust in the audience
24:33 - Participation in art
28:27 - Distorted retellings
32:30 - Resistance of tyranny
35:28 - Identity and form
37:16 - Limitation and contemporary art
41:34 - AI art
44:11 - Human connection
45:30 - Making space

Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ 
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

In this episode I try to circle around something that is very difficult to speak about directly — the void.
From the opening verses of Genesis, where the earth is described as “empty and void,” we are confronted with a mystery that runs through Scripture, philosophy, and our own experience. What is the “not that” which underlies being? Why has the modern world become so fascinated with negativity, difference, and alterity? And how do we understand the necessary — yet possibly dangerous — role of emptiness in the structure of reality?

YouTube version: https://youtu.be/10DS7IxOVro

🎧 Listen to and review The Symbolic World podcast:
-Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0gI8bUwPtT3gkduHqNh6M5
-Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-symbolic-world/id1386867488 

=============
NEW COURSE: The Art of Imitating Heaven: Structure and Meaning in Ancient Cosmology By Joshua Sturgill
What is heaven? Where is it? For ancient people, the answer was obvious: simply look up at the night sky. For them, to see the stars and planets was to see the face of the divine. Christianity, too, understood the visible sky as the realm of unfallen creation. What does this belief mean, and why was it lost?
🗓 Live classes are on Sundays at 5-6:30pm Eastern Time, starting February 1st through March 8th, 2026.
💰 Price: $150 USD (Involved patrons qualify for a 10% discount)
⏰ Register now: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/the-art-of-imitating-heaven
===============

Mentioned:
-Symbolism Explained: The Fundamental WWII Duality That Still Haunts Us Today: https://youtu.be/vLpEDlgEleg?si=w45xD3-uGdx2WOo4
-The World War II Consensus is Breaking Down: https://youtu.be/MfXxQW77cQA?si=7TnLlu7uq--Fej3D
-GodsDog: https://store.thesymbolicworld.com/collections/godsdog
-My recent video on the Parable of the Wedding Feast: https://youtu.be/YRMlQiNkSpE?si=JF3fy7RdFR8FtxO2

Timestamps:
00:00 - Coming up
01:03 - Intro music
01:28 - Introduction
05:22 - The role of the void
06:36 - The separation of heaven and earth
09:13 - Not that
11:18 - Let the earth produce
14:32 - Asking questions
16:07 - The ancient perspective
20:38 - Earth being earth
22:15 - The tree of good and bad
29:44 - What is sin?
32:37 - Examples of sin
33:53 - Judging difference
35:01 - Postmodern thinking
36:07 - Sadism and masochism
40:11 - The Mother of God
43:51 - Since WW2
48:08 - Outro

🔓 Become a patron to support us and unlock exclusive monthly symbolism content: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau  

Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ 
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

In this talk at St. Michael’s Church in Charleston, I walk through the seven days of creation as presented in Genesis, exploring creation as a divine song: a rhythm of heaven and earth, light and darkness, above and below. 

YouTube version: https://youtu.be/p2kb9ggwrp0

=============
NEW COURSE: The Art of Imitating Heaven: Structure and Meaning in Ancient Cosmology By Joshua Sturgill
What is heaven? Where is it? For ancient people, the answer was obvious: simply look up at the night sky. For them, to see the stars and planets was to see the face of the divine. Christianity, too, understood the visible sky as the realm of unfallen creation. What does this belief mean, and why was it lost?
🗓 Live classes are on Sundays at 5-6:30pm Eastern Time, starting February 1st through March 8th, 2026.
💰 Price: $150 USD (Involved patrons qualify for a 10% discount)
⏰ Register now: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/the-art-of-imitating-heaven
===============

Timestamps:
00:00 - Coming up
00:57 - Intro music
01:22 - Introduction
05:18 - Day 1
15:20 - Day 2
21:53 - Day 3
33:34 - Day 4
38:31 - Day 5
45:51 - Day 6

🔓 Become a patron to support us and unlock exclusive montly symbolism content: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau  
Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ 
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

Many are called. Not all are chosen.
There is a widespread idea that Christianity is about being “nice,” endlessly tolerant, and endlessly open. But that idea does not survive a careful reading of the Gospel.
In this video, I look at the parable of the Wedding Feast and explain why Christ’s invitation to everyone does not mean the acceptance of everything. Using this parable, I explore how compassion can become weaponized, how inclusion without a standard of conformity leads to chaos, and why both churches and nations must have limits if they are to remain what they are. This is not a political argument, but a symbolic and theological one—about how bodies, communities, and kingdoms actually function.

YouTube version: https://youtu.be/YRMlQiNkSpE
=============
NEW COURSE: The Art of Imitating Heaven: Structure and Meaning in Ancient Cosmology By Joshua Sturgill
What is heaven? Where is it? For ancient people, the answer was obvious: simply look up at the night sky. For them, to see the stars and planets was to see the face of the divine. Christianity, too, understood the visible sky as the realm of unfallen creation. What does this belief mean, and why was it lost?
🗓 Live classes are on Sundays at 5-6:30pm Eastern Time, starting February 1st through March 8th, 2026.
💰 Price: $150 USD (Involved patrons qualify for a 10% discount)
⏰ Register now: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/the-art-of-imitating-heaven
===============

💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau 
🔒 BECOME A PATRON: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe 
Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ 
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

I explore the Mandela Effect from a symbolic perspective. The Mandela Effect is a psychological phenomenon where a large group of people collectively share the same false memory of an event, detail, or pop culture fact. It has stirred up conspiracy theories about parallel timelines and simulation theory. In this video I suggest the possibility that it's a strength, rather than a weakness, of human cognition - a sign of how consciousness forms coherence, how legends accumulate, and how symbols shape the way we see and remember the world.

YouTube version: https://youtu.be/B-x5Ze04YEI

=============
NEW COURSE: The Art of Imitating Heaven: Structure and Meaning in Ancient Cosmology By Joshua Sturgill
What is heaven? Where is it? For ancient people, the answer was obvious: simply look up at the night sky. For them, to see the stars and planets was to see the face of the divine. Christianity, too, understood the visible sky as the realm of unfallen creation. What does this belief mean, and why was it lost?
🗓 Live classes are on Sundays at 5-6:30pm Eastern Time, starting February 1st through March 8th, 2026.
💰 Price: $150 USD
⏰🐥 DON'T MISS OUT! UNTIL FEBRUARY 1ST YOU CAN GET THE EARLY BIRD SPECIAL OF 15% OFF! Discount automatically applied at checkout.
Register now: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/the-art-of-imitating-heaven
===============

💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau 
🔒 BECOME A PATRON: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe 
Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ 
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/