No Small Endeavor with Lee C. Camp

What if burnout isn’t failure, but an invitation to become more fully human?

Back in 2023, Anglican priest and author Tish Harrison Warren hit a wall. She was exhausted by her work  on faith and public discourse at the New York Times, and discouraged by the constant controversy that came hand in hand with writing about religion in a public forum. So she left. What followed was a 2 year exploration of burnout in modern culture, and her most recent book: ⁠What Grows in Weary Lands⁠. In it, she explores the wisdom of early Christian teaching, and the many ways that embracing limits, difficulty, and the “arduous good” can lead to deeper meaning and authentic human flourishing.

Key Ideas:

-Embrace the Arduous Good: The most meaningful parts of life (relationships, faith, vocation,) are often difficult, and their difficulty is part of their inherent value.

-Grow Roots Through Limits: Depth comes not from endless options but from accepting constraints and staying present long enough for roots to form.

-Practice Faith as Craft: Like any meaningful discipline, faith is shaped through daily habits and persistence.

-Walk Toward the Desert: Seasons of burnout and spiritual dryness are not failures but invitations to deeper growth and transformation.

-Choose the Local Act of Love: Real flourishing happens in embodied, everyday acts of care, not abstract ideals or grand ambition.

⁠⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Tish Harrison Warren⁠

⁠⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable.

No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠⁠ 

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is our unabridged interview with Nicholas Ma.

What if the goal of disagreement isn’t to win, but to stay in relationship?

After producing the smash hit documentary “Won’t You Be My Neighbor,” on the life of Fred Rogers, filmmaker Nicholas Ma had one lingering question: Where is the kindness and acceptance that Mr. Rogers embodied in today’s divided world? He found the answer in his latest documentary, Leap of Faith, which follows 12 pastors as they navigate the deep theological and cultural challenges that divide them. Nicholas discusses the process of making the film, the unlikely friendships that developed, and the quiet power of sitting with another person’s pain.

Key Ideas:

-Love Beyond Understanding

True friendship grows when we learn to love the parts in others that we cannot understand.

-Stay Present in Pain

Transformation often begins not by fixing or debating, but by sitting with another’s pain and bearing witness together.

-Choose Relationship Over Certainty

Clinging to certainty can make our worldview fragile, while embracing the unknown creates space for growth, faith, and connection.

-Endure the Process of Change

Meaningful change requires time; like any deep human process, it cannot be rushed without losing its depth.

-Practice Proximate Care

Human flourishing begins locally—by loving our neighbors well and cultivating communities of care where we are.

⁠⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Nicholas Ma⁠⁠

⁠⁠Join NSE+⁠⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable.

No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠⁠ 

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠⁠@leeccamp ⁠⁠
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Noah Kahan’s The Great Divide is a brutally honest soundtrack to growing up, drifting away, and figuring out how to make peace with the place you come from.

This episode dives into The Great Divide, the latest record from Noah Kahan, and unpacks its themes of home, relationships, love, and friendship. In it, they explore their own connections to their hometowns, Wendell Berry’s hot take about automobiles, and Kahan’s own eschatology (that he may or may not know about).

Things we mentioned in this episode:

The Great Divide album by Noah Kahan

The Frozen River by Ariel Lawhon

Alabama I Am Bound by Walker Burroughs

Out of Your Car, Off Your Horse by Wendell Berry

Against the Machine by Paul Kingsnorth

Center Church by Tim Keller

Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok

Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter

Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack

Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Noah Kahan’s The Great Divide is a brutally honest soundtrack to growing up, drifting away, and figuring out how to make peace with the place you come from.

This episode dives into The Great Divide, the latest record from Noah Kahan, and unpacks its themes of home, relationships, love, and friendship. In it, they explore their own connections to their hometowns, Wendell Berry’s hot take about automobiles, and Kahan’s own eschatology (that he may or may not know about).

Things we mentioned in this episode:

The Great Divide album by Noah Kahan

The Frozen River by Ariel Lawhon

Alabama I Am Bound by Walker Burroughs

Out of Your Car, Off Your Horse by Wendell Berry

Against the Machine by Paul Kingsnorth

Center Church by Tim Keller

Follow The Subtext: Instagram | Threads | X | YouTube | TikTok

Follow Lee: Instagram | Twitter | Lee's Newsletter

Follow Savannah: Instagram | Substack

Join our Email List: nosmallendeavor.com
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if the goal of disagreement isn’t to win, but to stay in relationship?

After producing the smash hit documentary “Won’t You Be My Neighbor,” on the life of Fred Rogers, filmmaker Nicholas Ma had one lingering question: Where is the kindness and acceptance that Mr. Rogers embodied in today’s divided world? He found the answer in his latest documentary, Leap of Faith, which follows 12 pastors as they navigate the deep theological and cultural challenges that divide them. Nicholas discusses the process of making the film, the unlikely friendships that developed, and the quiet power of sitting with another person’s pain.

Key Ideas:

-Love Beyond Understanding

True friendship grows when we learn to love the parts in others that we cannot understand.

-Stay Present in Pain

Transformation often begins not by fixing or debating, but by sitting with another’s pain and bearing witness together.

-Choose Relationship Over Certainty

Clinging to certainty can make our worldview fragile, while embracing the unknown creates space for growth, faith, and connection.

-Endure the Process of Change

Meaningful change requires time; like any deep human process, it cannot be rushed without losing its depth.

-Practice Proximate Care

Human flourishing begins locally—by loving our neighbors well and cultivating communities of care where we are.

⁠Show Notes, Resources, and Transcript⁠ for abridged episode with Nicholas Ma⁠

⁠Join NSE+⁠ — our subscriber-only community — for ad-free listening, member-only bonus content, and early access to live show tickets. Your membership helps make No Small Endeavor sustainable.

No Small Endeavor: An award-winning podcast that asks what it means to live a good life. Through conversations with leading thinkers across theology, philosophy, psychology, politics, and the social sciences, we explore human flourishing, meaning and purpose, faith and culture, science and religion, virtue and character, religion and spirituality, community, and the practices that help shape a good life grounded in truth, beauty, and goodness. Follow ⁠@nosmallendeavor⁠ 

Host Lee C. Camp: Lee has worked as a professor of theology & ethics for more than 25 years, teaching and writing on topics of faith & politics, inter-religious dialog, and human flourishing at the intersection of theology, moral philosophy, and social sciences. Follow ⁠@leeccamp ⁠
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices