Disorder

Welcome to ‘Out of Order’ with Mark Lobel. A new series, in partnership with Disorder.

Remarkable people, unguarded. Each month, Emmy nominated journalist Mark Lobel meets some of the world’s most interesting people to understand the moments that made them who they are; and where they see hope in our mad mad mad mad world when so much feels out of order.

In his most revealing interview yet, Charles Cumming, a master of modern spy fiction, opens up about his work, life and reveals his biggest regret, one that helped shape his spy novels.

The duo discuss Charles upbringing - and how being sent to a boarding school at a young age shaped his writing. They also chat divorce-- and how two divorces, that of Charles parents and later himself, still shapes his writing, and why spy novels can call out the crimes and immorality of people like Putin and Trump in different ways that politicians and political commentators.

For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club - use the promo code BACKGAMMON50 for 50% off a Mega Orderers membership. Limited time only. There is only one week left to redeem this offer.

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Get in touch with Mark here https://www.mark-lobel.com/

For more on Out of Order visit https://linktr.ee/outofordermarklobel

ICARUS 17: A nailbiting new Lachlan Kite espionage thriller, from Sunday Times bestselling author Charles Cumming: Book 4 (BOX 88)https://amzn.eu/d/06DAbiyU

To celebrate Jason's 2nd place finish at the World Backgammon Championships, we're rerunning a classic episode of Disorder; centred around the game itself and the lessons it provides for the Mega Ordering community.

If you didn’t hear this when it came out in July, 2025, I think you’ll enjoy checking it out now.

We’ve heard about Putin bluffing. Abraham Lincoln was an accomplished poker player and Churchill dabbled at chess. But to our mind it is Backgammon that best reflects both politics and life decisions. It’s a game of skill, luck, reversals and socializing. So could world leaders use Backgammon to help them develop their empathy, strategic thinking, resilience, and make better decisions?

In this conversation, Jason Pack is joined by Marc Olsen – fellow Backgammon Grandmaster, former professional footballer, and the CEO and Founder of Backgammon Galaxy. Together they explore the multifaceted world of Backgammon. They unpack how it is a metaphor for life, decision-making, and the balance between order and disorder.

They discuss Marc's journey from professional football to becoming the CEO of Backgammon Galaxy, the conformism of Scandinavian society, and how a rebellious nature led Marc to discover Austrian school economics. Plus: the emotional aspects of learning through games, the relevance of game theory in the Enduring Disorder, and the unique features of Backgammon that make it a rich learning experience. And as they Order they Disorder – how Backgammon can foster empathy and social skills, and the potential of Backgammon as a tool for cross-cultural connection, especially in the Middle Eastern region.

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

The World Backgammon Championship Final featuring Jason Pack against Petko Kostadinov : The World Backgammon Championship Final 2026

For more on Backgammon Galaxy visit - https://www.backgammongalaxy.com/

To watch the 2024 World Backgammon Championship Final commentated by Marc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d7-ky1bROk

For a very fun video produced by Marc and featuring Jason about the World Backgammon Championship: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TebkgCNS7OI

For Marc on the Gentleman Scofflaw podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-gentleman-scofflaw-podcast/id1216891117?i=1000650103880

Jason and Jane are back from their holidays – Jason celebrating making the Finals of the World Championships of Backgammon and winning the Silver Medal, and Jane reflecting on her time in Morocco. But soon as they discuss the state of the world, Disorder enters as they disagree agreeably about devolution in the UK. Plus: what can or is being done with the climate crisis, and what does Abdul El-Sayed’s win in America’s Democratic primary mean for the direction the party is taking and its hope for the midterms?

For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club - use the promo code BACKGAMMON50 for 50% off a Mega Orderers membership. Limited time only.

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

For Jason’s reflections on Backgammon and Mega-Ordering and humility on losing: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iGehf_MAyuE

For Valeria’s art: https://backgammonbeauty.com/

You can watch the final here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UruOwdoyu8&t=8414s

Or the more (pleasing from my perspective) semi final here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yptjF5waoZ8&t=12807s

Andy Burnham on How to Fail - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aRidqdh29w

For more on Backgammon Galaxy visit - https://www.backgammongalaxy.com/

For summer recess, we return to our favourite episodes of all time where we explain the very essence of our conception of the Enduring Disorder as a period where international institutions tend not to work and where coordinating the allies to stay on the same page about things like defence, climate change, and taxation is a tremendous challenge. The rare exception is NATO, it mostly works even if Trump rails against it.  This episode explains why.

If you didn’t hear this when it came out in October, 2023, I think you’ll enjoy checking it out now.

Nation states no longer work effectively in tandem. Gone are the days of hegemonic US power directly ordering the allies. Furthermore, groups like the UN are ineffective, with disruptors often calling the shots. However, NATO stands apart as an example of how countries can work together successfully and how a global institution can remain largely uncontroversial, while doing serious coordinating work to solve real world problems.

In this episode our hosts and guests relate their perspectives about what NATO stands for, its strengths and limitations, and the threats it faces. Former NATO Deputy Sec General, Jamie Shea tells about how the organisation worked in the Balkans and Afghanistan, while Kori Schake mulls over the role of the US as NATO’s hegemonic leader. Timothy Garton Ash comments on distinctions between NATO and the EU especially as pertains to values like liberty. Finally, Charles Kupchan examines why Russia chooses to actively disorder. Charles and Jason disagree agreeable on China’s role as an orderer vs. disorderer.

For ad free listening, early release episodes and more bonus content, join our Mega Orderers Club at disordershow.com/club

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

For more on Kori Schake, visit https://www.aei.org/profile/kori-schake/ 

For more on Jamie Shea, visit https://www.chathamhouse.org/about-us/our-people/jamie-shea

Get Timothy Garton Ash’s book, Homelands at - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/442543/homelands-by-ash-timothy-garton/9781847926616 

For more on Charles Kupchan, visit https://www.cfr.org/expert/charles-kupchan

This week on Disorder latest, Jason is joined by Dr Florence Gaub, futurist, military strategist, and Director of the Research Division at the NATO Defense College. Florence has spent her career thinking professionally about something most of us do rather badly: systematically plan for the future.



Her book, The Future: A User’s Guide, was a best seller in German. It is now available in English from Hurst. It argues that the future is not simply something that happens to us. We imagine it, fear it, misunderstand it and — crucially — in thinking about it in certain flawed ways, help create it.



Jason and Florence discuss why humans are simultaneously obsessed with the future and terrible at thinking about it: from catastrophising and the Cassandra Complex to optimism bias, surprise and science fiction. They explore why governments are so often blindsided by seemingly predictable crises — and whether strategic foresight can help Orderers stop responding to yesterday’s problems.



In Ordering the Disorder, they discuss how imagining positive futures might itself be a tool for Ordering the Disorder.



Producer: Sam Cluley



Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/



Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow



Show Notes Links:

Buy Florence Gaub’s The Future: A User’s Guide: https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/the-future/



Read about Florence and her work at the NATO Defense College: https://www.ndc.nato.int/research/researchers/florence-gaub/



Listen to Florence on NATO 2099 and strategic foresight: https://www.nato.int/en/news-and-events/articles/news/2024/12/20/nato-through-time-podcast-nato-2099-with-dr-florence-gaub



Read Florence on futurism, geopolitics and the risks of stumbling into wider war: https://english.elpais.com/international/2026-03-03/florence-gaub-natos-futurist-you-can-slide-into-a-world-war-even-if-nobody-wants-it.html





For our collaboration with the Epstein Book Club who are running our Andrew Lownie Episode see here: https://www.epsteinfilesbookclub.com/the-british-component-disorder-podcast-cross-post/